Sorry guys. Struggling with the quote system. Thomas said if we would be happy if he just lowered the strength of the wheel.
I think what would make people happy, is to offer a motor upgrade for the CSW, which ensures the motors are just as high quality as the rest of the product. And that the motors can handle ANY setting the wheel or game can provide all day long and twice on Sunday.
It's like building a Ferrari with the engine from a Honda Civic.
> Thomas Jackermeier > John, Marc, let me give you some examples: Last week with the latest system update, my ANdroid phone lost the capability to view flash on websites. Can I now go to HTC and claim my money back?
If HTC advertised this phone on its capability to read flash then a court will be your side because of false advertising. Even if not in a "true" advertisement, if the court estimates it can be assimilated to an adv, like publicly released informations any potential customer have fair chance to base his decision on to decide to buy or not, then the court could state you intentionnaly tried to abuse the customers by spreading false informations or nature of mislead him.
> Thomas Jackermeier If you buy a new car you can expect that the brakes last for many thounsand kilometers. If you go on a race track and heat them up too much you can burn them within an afternoon. The car makers fault?
Come on Thomas, you cannot compare using a road car every customer will understand is not made for racing on track (and court will certainly state the same), with a feature designed to make a 4x signal amplification (and only signal, max power output remains unaffected) that the company would hope the customers will understand by themsleves (not a single warning from Fanatec) that it's not meant to be used at designed full potential.
And we are not even talking about using it to its full designed potential, but at least a decent one, one that would correspond to the use meant for this feature and not make it almost inexistant.
250 seems a fair value to me too. 150 is removing a feature that you promoted the wheelbase with.
See, when I tested the wheelbase I first expected a lot at the first glance at it, based on the quality feel when looking at it and touching it.
Then it did not took long to realize the ffb fading due to the heating protection system, pointing at the fact that the motors were not as strong as I'd have expected regarding the overall built quality.
That was a first little disappointment (among some others, in particular significant wheel play due to the QR system, or unadjustable shifter paddles throw due a design flaw). But, weighting the pros & cons, it was not perfect but still a good value for money.
Then after a few monthes I read on forums people have ffb motors dying. I'm not very pleased to see this but mine is still working. Until the day mine die too. So you change them at your charge, nothing to say about that, but now after that I wonder how long the new ones will last, and what will happen if they die again when I'm out of warranty.
You spreaded the info you found a design flaw on those engines and that it was now fixed, but that's just an info we have no way to verify, so I cannot say I'm confident again my 800€ wheel will last (my 2 microsoft wheels are still working, the older being 15 or 20 years old now).
And now there is this update where you significantly reduced a feature that is susceptible to stress the motors (but you promoted the wheelbase on).
So how to still be happy and confident when various events that happened during my 1st year of use (ffb fading, other users' dead motors (sometimes twice), my own motors death, your fw limitation) just pointed toward the motors as really being not robust enough for that wheelbase.
I really wish you decided to offer a motors upgrade kit for the most enthusiasts CSW customers, that you would offer at decent price for early adopters like you did earlier with the GT3RS upgrade kit to v2. Better motors ? Or a watercooling kit for the mabushi ones ?
> Thomas Jackermeier should only be used to amplify very weak signals to a reasonable level so that you can enjoy a game with weak force effects as much as a perfectly tuned game like Assetto Corsa at 100%.
How your customers are meant to determine was is "reasonnable level" ? I felt I was using reasonnable level when using FOR with assetto. Not stronger ffb than what I could have with other games without using FOR. Still my motors died.
About AC, it is a really good sim. But I won't go as far as saying it'd be "perfectly tuned". Not yet at least, but I don't think the ffb will significantly change by the time we reach the final product. I feel it will continue to be as now, which means best ffb is obtained by using 150 to 250 FOR, depending on car (with lowered ingame ffb setting, like 20-60 depending on car).
edit: I've just checked my current AC setting is 20 for ingame ffb gain and 180 for CSW FOR. And this is for competitive racing, I may go a bit higher if I'm more toward playing for fun, or with some specific cars.
Hey John, you American? Just wondering, as you seem to like courts.... Lol! Just kidding.
But seriously, I think a couple things need to happen here........you need to chill with the lawyer speak and Fanatec needs to address the motor issue by giving us an upgrade path.
And seeing how Fanatec is trying to dodge their responsabilities on this by trying to imply this was an unsupported feature by now calling this "overclocking", when it was clearly used as a selling feature for advertising the wheel, makes me even less likely to accept this. Shall Courts had to tell who is wrong there, I have no doubt they would say the product is "not as advertised anymore".
Interesting that you see a manual as a selling advertisment. People usually see what features are given on a homepage, not go look for a manual and see what is shown there.
Notebook sellers should stop selling notebooks with different configurations then, because if you buy a laptop without 3G module, but it is in the manual, then this is a false advertisment in your view, even though on a page it is sold, there's no talk about 3G.
I honestly don't have a clue what point you are making other than you're upset that they don't agree with you that it's not an issue?
If you buy a cup of tea from me but I just give you an empty cup and told you that we removed that feature from tea, would you not be upset?
I honestly don't have a clue what point you are making other than you're upset that they don't agree with you that it's not an issue?
If you buy a cup of tea from me but I just give you an empty cup and told you that we removed that feature from tea, would you not be upset?
Well, I'm not upset at all. Why would I be, it doesn't affect me in any way. I just see this thing differently. It is a firmware that can be changed anytime (it is being changed in every device where you can change firmware - my phone, my tablet, my computer, my tv etc). I'll take features that are written on product page as the features it must have. Video can show just a current situation and at the time that video was made, values were like they were. It doesn't mean that they have to be till the end of the days like that because they were shown like that.
For example, everybody always brag about iOS being the best. It is fast, smooth and easy, nothing like LAGdroid. I have iPad 3 and I'm actually quite sick of it. As their every new device gets faster, they make worse job with every new iOS versions and to me, this iOS7 on my iPad is worse than most androids, let alone windows. Should I sue Apple letting me use this piece of carbage (they don't let me downgrade back to iOS 6), although they claim it to be better than previous iOS versions. Things just are what they are. There are flaws everywere. If you don't like it, buy something else.
> Hey John, you American? Just wondering, as you seem to like courts.... Lol! Just kidding.
But seriously, I think a couple things need to happen here........you need to chill with the lawyer speak and Fanatec needs to address the motor issue by giving us an upgrade path.
Simple.
No need to quote my whole post to say just this
Nope, not american. I just take court as a reference because we are talking about whether or not it is normal to remove a feature after you have sold a product. Since this subject has to do with commercial laws it is normal to refer to what court would decide.
Nope, not american. I just take court as a reference because we are talking about whether or not it is normal to remove a feature after you have sold a product. Since this subject has to do with commercial laws it is normal to refer to what court would decide.
You are exaggerating a bit. They lowered it's possible effect yes, but they didn't remove it.
We'll see whether thousands or millions or whatever the number of people, who bought Kingston and PNY SSD's demand a refund, because they got a bit different SSD than was actually used to show its capabilities. I don't think it will be the case.
I'll take features that are written on product page as the features it must have. Video can show just a current situation and at the time that video was made, values were like they were.
Then, according to your statement:
- spring, damper, ffb strength, linearity, deadzone, abs, could all be limited to 0.00001% range by fw upgrade if fanatec decided to. - drift mode feature could be removed - centering procedure could be removed (if your wheel get off centered, you can throw it) - all the buttons, shifter paddles, and analog stick could be made not functionnal (product page does not mention they are. Only the 7 direction stick with the encoder is said to be meant to work with the wheel menu and pc games).
And you gonna tell me you would have nothing to say about it and just accept it ?
Another thing: the public manual is not the only source of information. When you buy the wheel you then have a few days to test it and decide if you keep it or you can legally return it and ask for a refund. You take your decision after you have been able to test the product, which means after you have been able to see all the functionnalities, and that includes checking all the on the fly settings ranges...
So no, it's not normal that after you have decided to keep the product based on those testing it can be downgraded by removing functionnalities on it.
- spring, damper, ffb strength, linearity, deadzone, abs, could all be limited to 0.00001% range by fw upgrade if fanatec decided to. - drift mode feature could be removed - centering procedure could be removed (if your wheel get off centered, you can throw it) - all the buttons, shifter paddles, and analog stick could be made not functionnal (product page does not mention they are. Only the 7 direction stick with the encoder is said to be meant to work with the wheel menu and pc games).
Well, I actually always have spring, damper, linearity, deadzone and abs zero or off (whatever the option is). I have used drift at 1 sometimes, but usually it is zero, because this wheel feels good. Previously I had GT3RS and it definitely needed drift setting.
Wheel centering is a logical thing. It doesn't have to be said that you have this feature. (Kind of like you don't have to write in a computer description that it has a power button).
As for buttons etc, I'm thinking of buying rally-style rim and like things to be clean. I've had Fanatec wheels for 5 years now and before that, logitech for very many years and I don't really use buttons on the rim very much, (G25 only had 2). I'm not the kind of guy who constantly needs to set something when racing and while you are not driving, I can use keyboard for that. Many people buy button boxes and I don't think that is because 16 buttons on the rim are not enough. So they are not that essential to me.
So you could say I'm unpretentious or whatever the word is to use and it's probably due to country I'm living in. We are not one of those highly paid wellfare countries. So I don't expect much from everything (don't have to dissapoint later) and am pretty compliant. I'm human afterall and get accustomed to new things. Simple as that. It is not the end of the world. Of course I don't know about you, but I don't think that it turned your racing experience upside down and it is almost impossible to be competitive again, because you think you don't feel most of the effects anymore (don't know about that).
- spring, damper, ffb strength, linearity, deadzone, abs, could all be limited to 0.00001% range by fw upgrade if fanatec decided to. - drift mode feature could be removed - centering procedure could be removed (if your wheel get off centered, you can throw it) - all the buttons, shifter paddles, and analog stick could be made not functionnal (product page does not mention they are. Only the 7 direction stick with the encoder is said to be meant to work with the wheel menu and pc games).
Well, I actually always have spring, damper, linearity, deadzone and abs zero or off (whatever the option is). I have used drift at 1 sometimes, but usually it is zero, because this wheel feels good. Previously I had GT3RS and it definitely needed drift setting.
Wheel centering is a logical thing. It doesn't have to be said that you have this feature. (Kind of like you don't have to write in a computer description that it has a power button).
As for buttons etc, I'm thinking of buying rally-style rim and like things to be clean. I've had Fanatec wheels for 5 years now and before that, logitech for very many years and I don't really use buttons on the rim very much, (G25 only had 2). I'm not the kind of guy who constantly needs to set something when racing and while you are not driving, I can use keyboard for that. Many people buy button boxes and I don't think that is because 16 buttons on the rim are not enough. So they are not that essential to me.
So you could say I'm unpretentious or whatever the word is to use and it's probably due to country I'm living in. We are not one of those highly paid wellfare countries. So I don't expect much from everything (don't have to dissapoint later) and am pretty compliant. I'm human afterall and get accustomed to new things. Simple as that. It is not the end of the world. Of course I don't know about you, but I don't think that it turned your racing experience upside down and it is almost impossible to be competitive again, because you think you don't feel most of the effects anymore (don't know about that).
I also have spring, damper, linearity, deadzone, abs und drift-setting set to zero or off
The FOR-Setting is for me the only crucial feature of the wheel
You also have to consider the two different rims (Formula RIm and BMW GT 2 Rim). In contrary to the Formula RIm the BMW Rim needs a higher FOR-Setting because of its larger diameter und weigth (2 kg). With FOR at 100 % the turning of the steering wheel of most cars in Assetto Corsa (for example the ferrari 599 XX) is far too easy and the resistance of the steering wheel is much too low. It's for me like driving a Ferrari 599 XX which feels like a Peugeot 206. That's affects at least the imersion and I think also the lap time.
A FOR of max. 150 is not much better. I use normally 180 % in Assetto Corsa with the BMW Rim. With the new firmware this will no longer be possible and that's a shame for a product that is selling at 450 € (without any rim !!!!). That price was for me only acceptable when there are motors build in that are not so weak that Fanatec now has to max the FOR-Seeting at a value that is less than the communicated and advertised value when I bought the CSW (400 %). I didn't had yet any problems with the CSW, the motors are functioning. If I would have known that the motors don' t suit the high price of the product and result in downgrading the max. FOR-Setting I wouldn't have bought it.
But I don't think that the limiting at 150 % is really necessary. For me it seems like FANATEC choose this value to exclude/diminsh the risk of Warranty cost to the lowest possible number to be on the safest of all sides.
That's very consumer unfriendly and only in favor of the commercial interests of FANATEC. With the new limitation the product is no longer worth the high amount of money it costs.
And the argument of FANATEC that many customers are already beyond the warranty period seems pretextual. At least this cannot explain the extreme low limit of 150 %. And with this expanation FANATEC admits that the motors are too weak to last serveral years wiith the initial setting.
I don't need 400 % FOR. Therefore my proposal to raise the limit at 250 %. Then I and I think nealry all other users of the CSW have no (real) limitation and the product would be (again) worth the money.
Thomas,
please raise the FOR-limit at 250 %.
That would be also in your interest respectivly in the interest of FANATEC not to downgrade your Premium Product too much. If you leave the limit at 150, that could affect negative the selling chances of the CSW and leads to frustration and indignation of (still) existing customers
I have also adresses this problem in the GERMAN ASSETTO CORSA-FORUM. Here is the link:
You also have to consider the two different rims (Formula RIm and BMW GT 2 Rim). In contrary to the Formula RIm the BMW Rim needs a higher FOR-Setting because of its larger diameter und weigth (2 kg). With FOR at 100 % the turning of the steering wheel of most cars in Assetto Corsa (for example the ferrari 599 XX) is far too easy and the resistance of the steering wheel is much too low. It's for me like driving a Ferrari 599 XX which feels like a Peugeot 206. That's affects at least the imersion and I think also the lap time.
I only have a BMW wheel, haven't had a opprtunity to try anything lighter.
That's the thing with the games. Of course it is good if you can tinker with the settings to make it more to your liking, but the thing is that most of us don't know how things really feel. I mean, I'm pretty sure you haven't driven Ferrari 599XX in real life, maybe steering really is very light or something. That's why I don't play with the settings that much, because Kunos and other developers don't probably do what they like. They either drive those cars themselves or use people input who have driven those cars and therefore know how it should be and I think they try to replicate them as close as possible. Of course it's only my opinion, maybe things aren't like that.
That would be also in your interest respectivly in the interest of FANATEC not to downgrade your Premium Product too much. If you leave the limit at 150, that could affect negative the selling chances of the CSW and leads to frustration and indignation of (still) existing customers
Why do you think that it has a negative affect on selling? People who have not tried it, doesn't know anyway how anything feels. Now you can still raise the value 1,5 times while no other wheel manufacturer doesn't offer it as far as I know. It is like saying that iPhone sales are highly affected, because it only has 1GB of ram while some androids even have 3GB or it only has 8MP camera, while many has a lot more. Fact is, those bloody iPhones are still one of the best-selling phones. It is impossible to know.
I have no idea where you guys are finding the ability to increase the FOR advertised and anyway so what if Fanatec decides to limit a feature like they're the first company to reduce features after purchase.
You have game company's taking down multiplayer, smartphones having reduced functionality (flash) and so on.
I have no idea where you guys are finding the ability to increase the FOR advertised and anyway so what if Fanatec decides to limit a feature like they're the first company to reduce features after purchase.
You have game company's taking down multiplayer, smartphones having reduced functionality (flash) and so on.
I only have a BMW wheel, haven't had a opprtunity to try anything lighter.
That's the thing with the games. Of course it is good if you can tinker with the settings to make it more to your liking, but the thing is that most of us don't know how things really feel. I mean, I'm pretty sure you haven't driven Ferrari 599XX in real life, maybe steering really is very light or something. That's why I don't play with the settings that much, because Kunos and other developers don't probably do what they like. They either drive those cars themselves or use people input who have driven those cars and therefore know how it should be and I think they try to replicate them as close as possible. Of course it's only my opinion, maybe things aren't like that.
Why do you think that it has a negative affect on selling? People who have not tried it, doesn't know anyway how anything feels. Now you can still raise the value 1,5 times while no other wheel manufacturer doesn't offer it as far as I know. It is like saying that iPhone sales are highly affected, because it only has 1GB of ram while some androids even have 3GB or it only has 8MP camera, while many has a lot more. Fact is, those bloody iPhones are still one of the best-selling phones. It is impossible to know.
I have never driven a ferrari but I am a car enthusiast for almost 20 years now and have driven many other (sports) cars (like porsche etc.). I own a BMW M 3 E 46. And threrefore I can judge ifa car that I not have driven in reality drives realistic in AC or not. Already the street Ferrari 599 can't drive as effortless as a peugeot 206 (as it does with FOR at 100%). The same is sure the case with the Ferrari 458. And the 599 XX is a race car. No race driver would accept a steerring that is so effortless.
As I alreday said I woudn' t have bought the csw with a FOR-limit of 150 %. Before buying it I also tought of buying the TRUSTMASTER 500 RS. With the new limit I would buy the TRUSTMASTER Wheel instead of the CSW as for now. The TRUSTMASTER is much cheaper and has (as is reported) better motors.
As you see (also in the German AC-Forum) I and John are not the only ones who are upset about the new limit. Therefore there is a ceratin likeliness that other people thinking of buying the CSW abandon it because of the new FOR-limit.
I have no idea where you guys are finding the ability to increase the FOR advertised and anyway so what if Fanatec decides to limit a feature like they're the first company to reduce features after purchase.
You have game company's taking down multiplayer, smartphones having reduced functionality (flash) and so on.
Before leaving a comment you should read the posts: the ability to increase the FOR up to 400 % is promoted in the manual video of the CSW. You can find it under "Downloads" on the csw-Page of the FANATEC-Homepage. There is written (the video has no audio) the following (at 3:15):
"Force (FOR) - If the force signals are too weak they can be amplified up to 4 times"
Apropos: the video hasn't be changed despite the 150 %-limit of the new firmware. I'm curious if FANATEC changes it ever.
This video was already posted by John Lomax in one of his posts here. There he posted also annother (you tube) video in which thomas (from FANATEC) expains the features of the CSW.
I have no idea where you guys are finding the ability to increase the FOR advertised and anyway so what if Fanatec decides to limit a feature like they're the first company to reduce features after purchase.
You have game company's taking down multiplayer, smartphones having reduced functionality (flash) and so on.
It is one of the things in CSW only tuning menu.
I know that but I said "advertised", how did you know about the feature before you brought it, in my eyes it didn't/couldn't influnce my decision in buying it therefore I cannot see what Fanatec can be blamed for.
Marek Laul please stop arguing if you are not interested in the FOR feature. You won't convince me, and I guess you won't convince Marc neither. Keeping arguing like you do is just adding unecessary noise to the discussion.
If you or anyone else want to be very compliant with companies selling them products and then removing functionnalities from it that's your problem guys. My opinion is your are not doing you a favor accepting this, because then companies will just try to abuse you more and more to maximise their profit. I'm NOT ready to accept this so don't try to tell me how I should react. Taking as an excuse other companies do the same means lowering the standards to the lowest and I don't want that.
Back to main subject, as I have been writing on another forum where this downgrade is being discussed, it's a fact a risk has been taken by fanatec by using low quality motors (I've read they are mostly used to make printers and other kitchen tools...) and by introducing a functionnality without knowing how it could affect reliability.
Now Thomas I'm not against the fact risk like this are taken and customers being beta testers (because that's how it can be summed up in the end) if it shortens the development to make the product available sooner and with a better price / quality ratio for the customers. But then this deal must be clear from the beginning and to the customer to accept it or not.
If instead you decide to hide the reality, and make as if the parts have been duly tested to ensure reliability, and in the end it reveals not reliable and you have to lower the specs of a product you have sold for higher specs, then you have to ASSUME IT. This means offering a fair compensation for it, like offering a motors upgrade kit for those who want, to repair the mistake you have made and that impacts the customers who had placed their trust in you when buying your product.
And if this is not an option, then I'm 100% in line with Marc request to raise it back to 250 which I also find is a fair compromise. The motor equiping the CSW costs 1.80$ each with a min order of 5000pcs so you can still continue to send them to customers if it fails out of the warranty period of their CSW.
Also idk if you are doing it already but I've read water breaking in those electric motors helps improving their reliability (and boosts a bit the output power on top of that). From what I have read it is very common to do this in the RC world: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyTHaLSDZw0
I know that but I said "advertised", how did you know about the feature before you brought it, in my eyes it didn't/couldn't influnce my decision in buying it therefore I cannot see what Fanatec can be blamed for.
The feature is explained by Thomas on a video where he was introducing the wheel at E3....
But that's not all. Do you miss the fact there has been a HUGE beta testing campain for this wheelbase, with people from countries all over the world publishing reviews of it ? Should I dig up and compil all the reviews talking about this feature and maybe even giving the numbers for this amplification range ?
I did not like the new firmware (driveability), so i went back to the old one (0.37) and problem solved.
The limitation of FOR, is not a problem for me, because i use only 120% ( maximum ) and FF 70% in all simulators ( Assetto, iracing, GSC Extreme and P Cars). If someone find a good settings with the new firmware in iracing, Assetto, etc. , please share with us...tks
Marek Laul please stop arguing if you are not interested in the FOR feature. You won't convince me, and I guess you won't convince Marc neither.
I would actually just like to see you going to a court. It would be something different and interesting. As you let us know that you are definitely right and Fanatec is wrong, it would be easy and short case. You could show us all that customer needs to stand for their rights. You show us that you are not the guy that lets cheat oneself. So why not easily prove it? I would definitely support your opinion in that case. If it is not official that Fanatec is cheating us - customers, they could do whatever they like. Make us all believe in you.
Do you have one of their universal hubs? If not, go back to firmware 037 as some have already done and you would be happy again. Fanatec at least gives you a choice to use different firmwares whether you like them or not, compared to some other companies.
I think a Moderator needs to do a cleaning on this thread since there are numerous posts with no actual content
NO CONTENT ???
If my (and John's) opinion is no content I have to "thank" you for your lack of respect.
This is a community forum where everyone is free to express his opinion even if you don't like it...
Hey I apologize I saw numerous empty posts for some reason. Anyway it was not you there were 5 posts in a row by Mark Medeiros that have nothing in them and was due to problems with the Quote system that I feel could have been cleaned up by a Moderator. I think you misunderstood.
Okay I was able to load the FW53 and driver 200 CS usb device not detected in v200 driver Roll back Driver to v144 CS usb device is detected. With Wheel booted with a FW53 Dr v144 combo GTR2 crashes, GTL Crashes, Assetto Corsa Loads but no FFB and that is as far as I have gotten. I turn the wheel off GTR2 loads up no problem so it would seem FW53 has compatibility issues with games and Driver 200 is no good as well. I have no choice but to fully roll back and hope my universal hubs work with a FW37 Dr v144 combo.
Hi Andrew,
please also re-install the v200 driver with all devices connected (and powered on - wheel) and check if the problem is resolved. If not, please send us a support inquiry from the support section of the website including all information you might have at hands. Problem description, screenshots, error messages and so on. We will look into it asap.
THX!
No help doing this and same result. I am at the moment trying this operation on my backup PC and I will get back with you as to my success.
Edit: Update Results on Backup PC. Still Issues Probably with driver unless new firmware is not allowing wheel to be properly recognized because in wheel properties the device lists as Club Sport Wheel but when I open the configuration page I get a generic Joystick calibration and setup page. However beyond that everything else seems to be right the CS usb adapter is recognized and Shifter maps in game. Except I have zero FFB in game
Edit#2:Dr/FW combo on backup PC- 177/53 works fine ffb is good also 144/53 works fine as well on my backup PC which I think I will stay with unless you can come up with reasons why I shouldn't? Oh by the way after FW update while working on my secondary PC there was a bad Spr issue that created a zero rotation until Spr was shut off. Which I have done for quite some time. Hopefully all this helps I will see if I can get everything corrected on my Primary system and let you know.
Edit #3. I have found a desirable combination of the 200/53 combo on my backup PC. Still issues on my Primary PC I got the FW Driver combo to work on that system but the FFB felt chunky broken and the motors out of sync with each other. The fact I do have it working well on another system eases my mind a bit but leads to other possible problems that may require a rebuild of the OS.
I would actually just like to see you going to a court. [...]go back to firmware 037 as some have already done
All you have done here so far is:
- act as a pure fanboy would do, trying to defend at all cost a company you like despite you are not concerned AT ALL by the subject being discussed as you don't use the feature
- act as someone who can't stop to counter argue because he cannot accept being proved wrong. Again you are not concerned at all by this limitation so stay out of the discussion.
No, staying with older firmware is not an option because I couldn't then benefit the ffb improvements brought by the new ones.
Also I don't feel the need to convince you I'm right. All I want is to convince Fanatec. You can think whatever you want. As long as you don't try to interfere in my discussion with Fanatec about an issue you are not concerned about, I DON'T CARE what you may think or be convinced of.
Court is an option I'd prefer to avoid. I know Thomas (and endors employees) is more open to discussion and closer to his customer base than many other companies, so my current action will be to try to solve this by discussing with him.
You are not endor employee and not concerned by the issue so stay out of this. It will benefit everyone. Save my time, save yours, and save other people who need to have their own issues adressed from having their posts losing visibilty due to pointless flooding you generate by arguing as if you were talking in the name of Fanatec.
Marek Laul please stop arguing if you are not interested in the FOR feature. You won't convince me, and I guess you won't convince Marc neither.
I would actually just like to see you going to a court. It would be something different and interesting. As you let us know that you are definitely right and Fanatec is wrong, it would be easy and short case. You could show us all that customer needs to stand for their rights. You show us that you are not the guy that lets cheat oneself. So why not easily prove it? I would definitely support your opinion in that case. If it is not official that Fanatec is cheating us - customers, they could do whatever they like. Make us all believe in you.
Do you have one of their universal hubs? If not, go back to firmware 037 as some have already done and you would be happy again. Fanatec at least gives you a choice to use different firmwares whether you like them or not, compared to some other companies.
I would like to see you pay for both parties to go to court for your petty amusement and for the settlement, if there is one. It would be a short case as you said, so you'd only have to pay for a few lawyers on either end. Maybe a few hundred thousand. No bid deal. And then we can all believe in you.
This guy is a troll. Aren't there moderators to deal with this?
I think a Moderator needs to do a cleaning on this thread since there are numerous posts with no actual content
NO CONTENT ???
If my (and John's) opinion is no content I have to "thank" you for your lack of respect.
This is a community forum where everyone is free to express his opinion even if you don't like it...
Hey I apologize I saw numerous empty posts for some reason. Anyway it was not you there were 5 posts in a row by Mark Medeiros that have nothing in them and was due to problems with the Quote system that I feel could have been cleaned up by a Moderator. I think you misunderstood.
OK That was really a misunderstanding But you made your statemennt after my last post so I thought your post related to mine... Never mind
You are not endor employee and not concerned by the issue so stay out of this. It will benefit everyone. Save my time, save yours, and save other people who need to have their own issues adressed from having their posts losing visibilty due to pointless flooding you generate by arguing as if you were talking in the name of Fanatec.
Well, I'm not speaking in name of them. I just say that I don't see them doing anything wrong with that and Thomas has already shown too, that he can do it as it is pretty common practice in industry. You say that he lowered it to protect the motors, why do you think he'll raise it again and risk again with more motor failures for probably not very many people if it is due to a motor failure protection. We'll see. There's always a hope of course. He might very well do this the way he said before, that raise it back up and lower the overall strength with it. I don't see this option being any better. In my, country, people go to court (mainly rich people of course) or collect signatures to show that there are big group of people who are against something and want changes (you need to get more people involved here) even though most of the times it doesn't seem to work. So, I don't see anything getting changed for only very few people. Only Thomas knows what Fanatec wheels are capable of and with what values he can risk with and no person complaining could just change that.
I hope this will be fixed also for the CSR wheel, i use FW756...
as this quest is still NOT answered yet, pls:
Do we [CSR users (not Elite)] need or get at least some advantage from this new driver v200 compare to the v177!!?? THX!!
SORRY if I do ask A SIMPLE question again, cause still not answered yet:
If you don't have their handbrake and/or usb adapter, probably not, otherwise I think they would have made it more clear. Only thing said is, that you can see what firmware your wheel currently has, so you can probably only see whether you have the latest firmware or not.
Comments
I honestly don't have a clue what point you are making other than you're upset that they don't agree with you that it's not an issue?
If you buy a cup of tea from me but I just give you an empty cup and told you that we removed that feature from tea, would you not be upset?
No need to quote my whole post to say just this
Nope, not american. I just take court as a reference because we are talking about whether or not it is normal to remove a feature after you have sold a product. Since this subject has to do with commercial laws it is normal to refer to what court would decide.
- spring, damper, ffb strength, linearity, deadzone, abs, could all be limited to 0.00001% range by fw upgrade if fanatec decided to.
- drift mode feature could be removed
- centering procedure could be removed (if your wheel get off centered, you can throw it)
- all the buttons, shifter paddles, and analog stick could be made not functionnal (product page does not mention they are. Only the 7 direction stick with the encoder is said to be meant to work with the wheel menu and pc games).
And you gonna tell me you would have nothing to say about it and just accept it ?
Another thing: the public manual is not the only source of information. When you buy the wheel you then have a few days to test it and decide if you keep it or you can legally return it and ask for a refund. You take your decision after you have been able to test the product, which means after you have been able to see all the functionnalities, and that includes checking all the on the fly settings ranges...
So no, it's not normal that after you have decided to keep the product based on those testing it can be downgraded by removing functionnalities on it.
Do we [CSR users (not Elite)] need or get at least some advantage from this new driver v200 compare to the v177!!?? THX!!
If you or anyone else want to be very compliant with companies selling them products and then removing functionnalities from it that's your problem guys. My opinion is your are not doing you a favor accepting this, because then companies will just try to abuse you more and more to maximise their profit. I'm NOT ready to accept this so don't try to tell me how I should react. Taking as an excuse other companies do the same means lowering the standards to the lowest and I don't want that.
Back to main subject, as I have been writing on another forum where this downgrade is being discussed, it's a fact a risk has been taken by fanatec by using low quality motors (I've read they are mostly used to make printers and other kitchen tools...) and by introducing a functionnality without knowing how it could affect reliability.
Now Thomas I'm not against the fact risk like this are taken and customers being beta testers (because that's how it can be summed up in the end) if it shortens the development to make the product available sooner and with a better price / quality ratio for the customers. But then this deal must be clear from the beginning and to the customer to accept it or not.
If instead you decide to hide the reality, and make as if the parts have been duly tested to ensure reliability, and in the end it reveals not reliable and you have to lower the specs of a product you have sold for higher specs, then you have to ASSUME IT. This means offering a fair compensation for it, like offering a motors upgrade kit for those who want, to repair the mistake you have made and that impacts the customers who had placed their trust in you when buying your product.
And if this is not an option, then I'm 100% in line with Marc request to raise it back to 250 which I also find is a fair compromise. The motor equiping the CSW costs 1.80$ each with a min order of 5000pcs so you can still continue to send them to customers if it fails out of the warranty period of their CSW.
Also idk if you are doing it already but I've read water breaking in those electric motors helps improving their reliability (and boosts a bit the output power on top of that). From what I have read it is very common to do this in the RC world: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyTHaLSDZw0
But that's not all. Do you miss the fact there has been a HUGE beta testing campain for this wheelbase, with people from countries all over the world publishing reviews of it ? Should I dig up and compil all the reviews talking about this feature and maybe even giving the numbers for this amplification range ?
I would actually just like to see you going to a court. It would be something different and interesting. As you let us know that you are definitely right and Fanatec is wrong, it would be easy and short case. You could show us all that customer needs to stand for their rights. You show us that you are not the guy that lets cheat oneself. So why not easily prove it? I would definitely support your opinion in that case. If it is not official that Fanatec is cheating us - customers, they could do whatever they like. Make us all believe in you.
Do you have one of their universal hubs? If not, go back to firmware 037 as some have already done and you would be happy again. Fanatec at least gives you a choice to use different firmwares whether you like them or not, compared to some other companies.
- act as a pure fanboy would do, trying to defend at all cost a company you like despite you are not concerned AT ALL by the subject being discussed as you don't use the feature
- act as someone who can't stop to counter argue because he cannot accept being proved wrong. Again you are not concerned at all by this limitation so stay out of the discussion.
No, staying with older firmware is not an option because I couldn't then benefit the ffb improvements brought by the new ones.
Also I don't feel the need to convince you I'm right. All I want is to convince Fanatec. You can think whatever you want. As long as you don't try to interfere in my discussion with Fanatec about an issue you are not concerned about, I DON'T CARE what you may think or be convinced of.
Court is an option I'd prefer to avoid. I know Thomas (and endors employees) is more open to discussion and closer to his customer base than many other companies, so my current action will be to try to solve this by discussing with him.
You are not endor employee and not concerned by the issue so stay out of this. It will benefit everyone. Save my time, save yours, and save other people who need to have their own issues adressed from having their posts losing visibilty due to pointless flooding you generate by arguing as if you were talking in the name of Fanatec.
Well, I'm not speaking in name of them. I just say that I don't see them doing anything wrong with that and Thomas has already shown too, that he can do it as it is pretty common practice in industry.
You say that he lowered it to protect the motors, why do you think he'll raise it again and risk again with more motor failures for probably not very many people if it is due to a motor failure protection. We'll see. There's always a hope of course. He might very well do this the way he said before, that raise it back up and lower the overall strength with it. I don't see this option being any better. In my, country, people go to court (mainly rich people of course) or collect signatures to show that there are big group of people who are against something and want changes (you need to get more people involved here) even though most of the times it doesn't seem to work. So, I don't see anything getting changed for only very few people. Only Thomas knows what Fanatec wheels are capable of and with what values he can risk with and no person complaining could just change that.